[juliom]

Dear community, I read a very good paper that it is definitely worth reading. I definitely encourage the reading:" Spectral analysis of finite difference schemes for convection diffusion equation". Suman et all. Computer and Fluids 150(2017)95-114. https://www.researchgate.net/publica...usion_equation


The authors presented a great analysis in the spectral domain of different temporal-spatial discretization techniques which results are extremely interesting. However, I have a couple of questions that I'd like to know your opinion and suggestions.


1.- The authors used a lot of complex properties and operation. I think that people that work with spectral methods understand this easily. Is there any resource you could suggest. For example, the derivation of the equations shown in Part 2 was difficult to really understand.



2.- Equation (9) represents the physical amplificationf factor, taht for this specfici case (convection- diffusion) has an analytical representation.




However, the text says that the absolute of G is the amplification factor. What I understand is the following. If the value of equation (9) is greater than 1 then the system is not damped at all and it will evolve to an unstable state, therefore diverging. Similarly for negative values. Therefore, a monotonical solution will require to G be between 0<G<1. Am I right?



Each numerical implementation (scheme) has its own amplification factor and the authors exploited this fact, and therefore they obtained the ratio between the [math]G_{phys}/G_{num}[math]. However, the [math]G_{num}[math], required the derivation of its analytical counterpart. I guess that is not straight forward for all schemes, for example, FVM. Or what if I have cell center or vertex center methods, or even an averaged method. How can I get the analytical counterpart? Is it possible to get the FFT of the solution at two subsequent time steps and obtain the ration in this way? However, I think that in the initial transient part where the solution hasn't evolved to the attractor the ration could be completely wrong since it is just a numerical transient phenomenon.



3.- An striking fact, is that for Euler - central difference for the convective and diffusive term, the instability region is shown in Figure 2 is considers areas with CFL way lower than 1....Jum interesting. For the same scheme but larger Peclent number, the stable region is completely different, with the lowest CFL being exactly 1 for all wavenumbers. This lead to the next question, does the instability born and grow in a specific wavenumber? Refer to figures 2-9 from paper.


Finally, the authors referred to diffusion when my conclusion is that G is more related to the dissipation. Diffusion is driven by gradients whereas dissipation is more a numerical issue because of truncation terms. For example closing paragraph from section 3.3.

[FMDenaro]

Hello Julio


I read that paper some time ago, Part 2 is based on the transformation of the original PDE in the Fourier space. Then the resulting ODE is integrate and provides the Gphys expression. This amplification factor is exact and describes the exact solution of the PDE therefore it cannot be used for studying the numerical instability. For that you should see the Gnum factors. As you wrote, each numerical scheme produces its Gnum factor. It does not change in time therefore has nothing to do with the initial numerical transient. Numerical stability is analysed for any initial solution.


I am not sure to understand your question #3

[juliom]

Thank you very much professor for your valuable time. Your inputs is always apprecaited!

Originally Posted by FMDenaro

This amplification factor is exact and describes the exact solution of the PDE therefore it cannot be used for studying the numerical instability.

I agree, the analytical amplification factor belongs to the PDE and not the numerical implementation.

Originally Posted by FMDenaro

For that you should see the Gnum factors. As you wrote, each numerical scheme produces its Gnum factor. It does not change in time therefore has nothing to do with the initial numerical transient. Numerical stability is analysed for any initial solution.

Professor, does it mean that I can get the Gnum by computing the FFT of the solution at two time steps and just divide U(k,\Delta t)/U(k,t). where U is the FFT of the velocity field "u". I am very surprised you mentioned that the initial transient does not do anything in this analysis. How is this possible? if the very first time is numerical but it does not correlate with the actual physics. I am very interested on getting one expression for my very specific method. However, obtaining the analytical solution for the numerical implemention is not straightforward.

Originally Posted by FMDenaro

I am not sure to understand your question #3

Professor I have uploaded two pictures. One is called 1 and the other one is called 3. The file named 1 represents the Euler - central scheme for the convective and diffusive term. The second file (2) represents the same discretization technique but the Peclet number is 0.5, whereas the first picture represent a case with Peclet number of 0.01. I am surprised that the unstable region is completely different. For the picture one it clearly shows that wavenumber largers than 3 are stable for all CFL numbers.

1.jpg
3.jpg
The follwing picture (2) represents the solution of Runge Kutta with compact scheme.

2.jpg
My question is more about the source of the instability. After looking at this picture I wonder if the culprit is one specific wavenumber. For example, picutre 2 shows that the wavenumber 2 is stable for CFL = 1.2, but the same wavenumber falls into the unstable region for CFL larger than 1.4. That is why I ask about the growth and source of instability.



Finally, the author uses diffusion where my conclusion is that G represents the dissaption and not diffusion, am I right ?

[FMDenaro]

The amplification factor Gnum is obtained from the numerical scheme when you insert the generic Fourier component Fk(t)*exp(i*k*x) in each term. This is the numerical solution you are supposing. When you analyse the numerical stability analysis we do not invoke a specific transient, the absolute stability requires that the solution is bounded for any initial condition and, therefore, for any numerical transient.
The relevance of the initial conditions can be to rapidly excite the highest resolved wavenumbers if are already present in the initial prescription.





When you consider a convection-diffusion equation the best way to analyse the stability issue is to consider the plane Cfl-Peh. That is a map in which you see the curve Cfl(Peh) representing the limit of the stability reagion. This map is obtained in doing the evaluation of the amplification factor in the most critical situation (in the sense for all the wavenumbers) for each couple of values (Cfl,Peh). You will see for example in the explicitly Euler scheme that for lower Peh you need lower Cfl to stay within the stability region.



Finally, the amplifcation factor Gnum is not representing dissipation or diffusion. When compared to Gphys, if you see that Gnum introduces more diffusion than the physical one present in Gphys you deduce the presence of numerical diffusion.

[juliom]

Thanks professor I agree!.

Any reference you could uggest to understand and learn more about the Spectral methods and the type of techniques used for these type of analysis.

Finally, to implement the equation I mentioned above, can I just use the FFT and compare it with the analytical solution?


Thanks

[FMDenaro]

Originally Posted by juliom

Thanks professor I agree!.

Any reference you could uggest to understand and learn more about the Spectral methods and the type of techniques used for these type of analysis.

Finally, to implement the equation I mentioned above, can I just use the FFT and compare it with the analytical solution?


Thanks

Julio
you don't need of a real spectral method or an FFT routine. Just consider what is the process in the von Neumann stability, that is write the discrete scheme, insert the generic Fourier component and, by hand, express the amplification number. In the 1D case, this latter is a function of the variables (Cfl, Peh, k). So, you can get what you want, you can represent the surface Gnum=1 in the 3D space using Tecplot or you can represent its projection on the (Cfl,Peh) plane. A good software I used to do the whole process is Maple.

[juliom]

Thanks Professor, I was to focused on the equation shown above. I'll do the homework and hope to finally fully understand the Von Neumann stability criteria.

[FMDenaro]

Originally Posted by juliom

Thanks Professor, I was to focused on the equation shown above. I'll do the homework and hope to finally fully understand the Von Neumann stability criteria.

Have a look to the textbook of Hirsch, that is explained in simple way

[arungovindneelan]

Originally Posted by juliom

Thanks professor I agree!.

Any reference you could uggest to understand and learn more about the Spectral methods and the type of techniques used for these type of analysis.

Finally, to implement the equation I mentioned above, can I just use the FFT and compare it with the analytical solution?


Thanks

You can refer :

https://nptel.ac.in/courses/101104013/15

https://books.google.co.in/books/abo...EC&redir_esc=y

I believe this analysis needs some more improvement to match the analysis with numerical results. I hope they will improve it. Though this numerical analysis needs improvement, it is better than other similar numerical analysis exist like spatial-DRP analysis or temporal-DRP analysis.

For me, the spatial-DRP analysis does not make any sense on any PDE with finite time integration schemes but you can find a lot of papers based on spatial-DRP analysis or optimization on top tier journals even after the establishment of space-time DRP analysis.

I'm personally not a fan of existing spectral analysis (known to me) applied on non-linear equation but for linear equations under some conditions they are fine.

If you wish, you can share your conclusion.
Thank you.

[juliom]

Thank you very much. I do have that textbook, but the analysis shown in the textbook is for the heat equation. Also, the process is not clear and my objective is to fully grasp the procedure.

I'll check the video lectures, thank you very much for the contribution.

[arungovindneelan]

Originally Posted by juliom

Thank you very much. I do have that textbook, but the analysis shown in the textbook is for the heat equation. Also, the process is not clear and my objective is to fully grasp the procedure.

I'll check the video lectures, thank you very much for the contribution.

I hope you know von Newmann stability analysis, From von Newmann stability analysis they have included one more extra step that quantifies dissipation and dispersion errors. If you want to check the robustness of the approach you can check it with the standard diffusion equation with Euler time integration and any spatial discretization.

For linear convection equation, it can predict whether the solution will grow or damp but it may have some problem when the solution is having multiple wave number. I personally don't agree with the linear spectral analysis of RK methods. If you like it, you can improve this analysis.


I have carried a small case study on this analysis. If you want, I can share that. I need your email, that you may share through message.

[FMDenaro]

Originally Posted by arungovindneelan

I hope you know von Newmann stability analysis, From von Newmann stability analysis they have included one more extra step that quantifies dissipation and dispersion errors. If you want to check the robustness of the approach you can check it with the standard diffusion equation with Euler time integration and any spatial discretization.

For linear convection equation, it can predict whether the solution will grow or damp but it may have some problem when the solution is having multiple wave number. I personally don't agree with the linear spectral analysis of RK methods. If you like it, you can improve this analysis.


I have carried a small case study on this analysis. If you want, I can share that. I need your email, that you may share through message.

A discussion about the original von Neumann stability analysis and the different approach that the authors adopt in those studies was discussed also here

https://www.researchgate.net/post/Ha...ory_a_flawness

[juliom]

Thank you very much. I'll greatly appreciate. Although I need to do my homework with the Von Neumann stability analysis, as suggested by professor Denaro. However, I'll be happy to jump onto your work to see it from your own perspective.

Julio

juliocesarmendez.carvajal@gmail.com
jcmendez@aggies.ncat.edu

[FMDenaro]

Originally Posted by arungovindneelan

You can refer :

https://nptel.ac.in/courses/101104013/15

https://books.google.co.in/books/abo...EC&redir_esc=y

I believe this analysis needs some more improvement to match the analysis with numerical results. I hope they will improve it. Though this numerical analysis needs improvement, it is better than other similar numerical analysis exist like spatial-DRP analysis or temporal-DRP analysis.

For me, the spatial-DRP analysis does not make any sense on any PDE with finite time integration schemes but you can find a lot of papers based on spatial-DRP analysis or optimization on top tier journals even after the establishment of space-time DRP analysis.

I'm personally not a fan of existing spectral analysis (known to me) applied on non-linear equation but for linear equations under some conditions they are fine.

If you wish, you can share your conclusion.
Thank you.

I agree that the real analysis requires to take into account the full time-space discretization. In other words, the guideline for the analysis is the modified PDE induced by the full discretization. It would be interesting to analyse the modifed equation in the wavenumber space.

[juliom]

Originally Posted by arungovindneelan

You can refer :

https://nptel.ac.in/courses/101104013/15

https://books.google.co.in/books/abo...EC&redir_esc=y



For me, the spatial-DRP analysis does not make any sense on any PDE with finite time integration schemes but you can find a lot of papers based on spatial-DRP analysis or optimization on top tier journals even after the establishment of space-time DRP analysis.

I'm personally not a fan of existing spectral analysis (known to me) applied on non-linear equation but for linear equations under some conditions they are fine.

If you wish, you can share your conclusion.
Thank you.

Interesing point, why such conclusion, If you do not mind to elaborate a little bit more. I'd say this paper also touches base on DRP issues since the physical speed of convection and group velocity used in the paper come from the expression valid for DRP. Without being an expert in the field, I'd say this method is very well backed up since each numerical scheme has its own analytical physical amplification factor. In fact, the paper uses different temporal and spatial schemes and at least for me, the procedure seems to be valid with no flaws at all. however, I may be overlooking something that is not obvious and I'll be happy to read your opinion.





Thanks
Julio

[arungovindneelan]

Originally Posted by FMDenaro

It would be interesting to analyse the modifed equation in the wavenumber space.

I think the heart of this analysis is: we know the exact solution of the differential equation that is converted into the solution in the spectral plane. Then we compare the exact solution and the solution obtained from numerical schemes. There is an imbalance between them, that we try to quantify as dispersion and dissipation error. So I don't think working on the equivalent differential equation is required. Once I was also thinking like that: To get a better analysis, we should work on the equivalent differential equation of the numerical schemes. It has some application limitations like the equivalent differential equation have a series of a higher-order derivative. Up-to what order we should truncate? and what kind of discretization we should apply on higher derivative? (e.g)

[FMDenaro]

Originally Posted by arungovindneelan

I think the heart of this analysis is: we know the exact solution of the differential equation that is converted into the solution in the spectral plane. Then we compare the exact solution and the solution obtained from numerical schemes. There is an imbalance between them, that we try to quantify as dispersion and dissipation error. So I don't think working on the equivalent differential equation is required. Once I was also thinking like that: To get a better analysis, we should work on the equivalent differential equation of the numerical schemes. It has some application limitations like the equivalent differential equation have a series of a higher-order derivative. Up-to what order we should truncate? and what kind of discretization we should apply on higher derivative? (e.g)

When you compare the exact and the numerical solution you should be aware that:
- this is the discretization error but the order of accuracy of a scheme is defined by means of the local truncation error.
- the discretization error requires theo know the exact solution that, in general, is not always known. Conversely, we could always deduce the local truncation error and, this way, the modified PDE.
- The modified PDE has infinite terms, if the solution is smooth you can focus only on the leading term. But in a practical computation we do not discretize the modified PDE, no matter of a kind of discretization of higher derivative