[ngj]

Hi Jorge,

I have not had a chance to consider the compilation on 2.2.0. There will be an update as soon as I have a working 2.2.0 and a compiled waves2Foam. These days, however, I cannot give you a time estimate.

If you figure out which elements to correct, then please do send me a list of needed corrections. It does, however, seem that it is the sampling that creates problems, so try to remove those lines from the Make/files and see, whether you can compile waves2Foam successfully.

Kind regards,

Niels

[JGadelho]

Hi Niels,
thank you for the fast reply.

For now I got back to OF 2.1.1. When I have the time, may be I'll try to do the changes (I've pour knowledge in linux, I don't know if I can do it).

I also would like to help improve the wikipage of waves2foam, because at first seems to be a little confusing. Since I'm working in a 2D waveflume may be I could produce a more complete tutorial.

I'll keep in touch!
And keep up the excellent work Niels!

congrats,
Jorge.

[ngj]

Hi Jorge,

That would be really helpful. The wiki page is free to be edited.

Have fun,

Niels

[ngj]

Dear all,

A small update on the compilation of waves2Foam on OF220. I got around to remove the compilation error reported by Jorge, however, it merely opened up for a considerably more evolved compilation error, which seems that I have to re-implemented the wave gauge part of the code.

Therefore, if you would like to try the new VOF-corrections in OF220, then please do the following

1. Remove the files

sampling/sampledSurfaceElevation/sampledSurfaceElevation.C
sampling/sampledSurfaceElevationFunctionObject/sampledSurfaceElevationFunctionObject.C

from Make/files.

2. Furthermore, I suppose (yet to be tested) that you can follow the guide on the waves2Foam wiki on how to adjust the interFoam into waves2Foam.

Kind regards,

Niels

[ngj]

For compilation on OF220, please refer to the following thread:

http://www.cfd-online.com/Forums/ope...tml#post412890

Kind regards,

Niels

[JGadelho]

Originally Posted by ngj

Dear all,

A small update on the compilation of waves2Foam on OF220. I got around to remove the compilation error reported by Jorge, however, it merely opened up for a considerably more evolved compilation error, which seems that I have to re-implemented the wave gauge part of the code.

Therefore, if you would like to try the new VOF-corrections in OF220, then please do the following

1. Remove the files

sampling/sampledSurfaceElevation/sampledSurfaceElevation.C
sampling/sampledSurfaceElevationFunctionObject/sampledSurfaceElevationFunctionObject.C

from Make/files.

2. Furthermore, I suppose (yet to be tested) that you can follow the guide on the waves2Foam wiki on how to adjust the interFoam into waves2Foam.

Kind regards,

Niels

hello Niels,
yesterday, I compiled successfully (I guess) the interFoam into waveFoam following the guide. So now I have OF220 with waves2foam working.

In the end by running the wmake command asked me all the related .H files. So I copied them into the compilation folder and it worked.

regards,
Jorge.

[ngj]

Hi Jorge,

Good to know. I believe that you have forgotten to modify your Make/options file, since you should not need to copy, e.g. relaxationZone.H to the solvers/solver220/waveFoam directory.

Kind regards

Niels

[bowlderster]

Hello, all.
Last night, I tried to compile waves2Foam in ubuntu12.04, but not successed.
The OpenFOAM version number is 2.1.1.
I compiled as following steps:
1.Download the sorce code from http://www.student.dtu.dk/~ngja/waves2Foam.tar.gz;
2.Decompress the files in my home directory, e.g /home/mydir/waves2Foam;
3.Install Gsl
sudo apt-get install libgsl0-dev;
4.Go to eh waves2Foam directory, and execute Allwmake script
cd waves2Foma
./Allwmake

After a while, in the terminal window, a compiling error appears.
It seems that "The directory ~/OpenFOAM/mydir-2.1.1/applications" not made.
Sorry, I am not very sure about that, and I will attach the message this night.
I will try it again this night.

My question is that the steps mentioned above is okay or not.
Thanks for your help.

[Galchenko]

Good morning!

I'm testing waveFoam on StokesFirst and StokesSecond waves with diffrent parameters. I found some limitation connected with wave number and amplitude for StokesFirst: for each amplitude I got min value of wave number, under which my solution crashes. The lower amplitude I take, the lower min wave number i can set. So, with amplitudes about 1 I can get just very steep waves. Did any one get similiar results? And what can it be connected with?

[neytirilover]

Hi forum,


I'm new to CFD and OpenFOAM as well as waves2Foam, but I think this is a great tool.

Based on the waves2Foam tutorial case of waveflume, I want to change the turbulenceProperties to add LES or RAS turbulence modeling to the flume and use it for reproducing an lab experiment.

I changed respective entries and added the RASproperties file to the case referencing the RAS tutorial DamBreak in interFoam. I also added respective variable entries to the ../0 folder to specify the boundary conditions. fvSchemes and fvSolutions are also modified accordingly.

Now the problem is how do I set the boundary conditions for k,nut and epsilon(since I'm using kEpsilon model for now.) at the inlet and outlet boundaries as well as the atmosphere boundaries? Currently I referred to some other cases and specfied them as:

inlet:

k: fixedValue; value uniform 0.1;
nut: zeroGradient;
epsilon: fixedValue; value uniform 0.1;

outlet:

k: inletOutlet; inletValue uniform 0.1;
nut: inletOutlet; inletValue uniform 0;
epsilon: inletOutlet; inletValue uniform 0.1;


I used this settings together with the existing alpha1, p_rgh and U settings to run the case and the case blows up.

I would appreciate if any suggestions about the boundary condition settings for k, nut and epsilon in waves2Foam could be given

[ngj]

Good morning,

You should keep in mind that you are imposing potential theory at the boundaries (at least as long as you are not super-imposing currents), though with your boundary conditions you apply an eddy viscosity at inlet and outlet, which is 0.009 and therefore violating the assumption of invisid flow.

Kind regards

Niels

[neytirilover]

Originally Posted by ngj

Good morning,

You should keep in mind that you are imposing potential theory at the boundaries (at least as long as you are not super-imposing currents), though with your boundary conditions you apply an eddy viscosity at inlet and outlet, which is 0.009 and therefore violating the assumption of invisid flow.

Kind regards

Niels

Hi Niels

Thank you for your kindly reply, if my understanding is correct, what you mean is that I specified non-zero k and epsilon value at the inlet boundary, which induced turbulence eddy viscosity and this violates the inviscid assumption of potential theory. I think this does make sense and I will set them to fixedValue 0, and see if things gets better, anyway I'll post the outcome here

Best Regards,

CH Xu

[neytirilover]

Originally Posted by ngj

Good morning,

You should keep in mind that you are imposing potential theory at the boundaries (at least as long as you are not super-imposing currents), though with your boundary conditions you apply an eddy viscosity at inlet and outlet, which is 0.009 and therefore violating the assumption of invisid flow.

Kind regards

Niels

Hi Niels


I tried to set the value of k and epsilon at the inlet to zero, but the model crashed, I think it is the kEpsilon model that is crashed judging from the error printed in the terminal, I than set the same values of k and epsilon in the tutorial case DamBreak, it also crashed, does this mean that k and epsilon cannot be set to zero in this k-E model?


Best Regards,

CH Xu

[Sagun]

Hi Niels,

I am working on OpenSuse 12.2 and OpenFOAM 2.2.0. I downloaded the latest version of waves2Foam source code following the link that you have mentioned in your previous post and compiled it. Apparently, the compilation seemed to be successful before I ran a test case and received this message:

"If 'waveFoam' is not a typo you can use command-not-found to lookup the package that contains it, like this:
cnf waveFoam"

Also, when I tried to run the 3Dwaves tutorial using the Allrun script, I get these messages:

Running blockMesh on /home/sagun/waves2Foam/tutorials/waveFoam/3Dwaves
Running faceSet on /home/sagun/waves2Foam/tutorials/waveFoam/3Dwaves
Running setsToZones on /home/sagun/waves2Foam/tutorials/waveFoam/3Dwaves
Running createBaffles on /home/sagun/waves2Foam/tutorials/waveFoam/3Dwaves
Running setWaveParameters on /home/sagun/waves2Foam/tutorials/waveFoam/3Dwaves
/opt/OpenFOAM-2.2.0/bin/tools/RunFunctions: line 42: 14054 Segmentation fault $APP_RUN "$@" > log.$APP_NAME 2>&1
Running setWaveField on /home/sagun/waves2Foam/tutorials/waveFoam/3Dwaves

Does all this mean that waves2Foam has not been properly installed?

Regards,
Sagun

[ngj]

Hi Sagun,

In short yes. Since you do not provide any other information, it is virtually impossible for me to give suggestions. It seems that not only waveFoam is not working, so something most be quite wrong in the compilation.

Since you are missing some utilities/solvers, it would be nice to see, what went wrong during the compilation.

You could also for testing purposes do

cd $FOAM_USER_APPBIN
ls

and you should be able to find, e.g. waveFoam, setWaveFields, setWaveParameters, etc. Otherwise, these have not been compiled. If they are present, then I suppose OpenFoam is not sourced correctly, before you execute the solvers/utilities.

Similar, doing

cd $FOAM_USER_LIBBIN
ls

should give you at least libwaves2Foam.so.

Kind regards

Niels

[Sagun]

Hi Niels,

So this is what I get when I do:

cd $FOAM_USER_APPBIN ls


relaxationZoneLayout setWaveField setWaveParameters surfaceElevation

I guess I should be able to see the waveFoam solver in here too.

And on doing:

cd $FOAM_USER_LIBBIN ls
libforcesSagun.so libwaves2Foam.so

[Sagun]

I also recompiled waves2Foam and there was an error during the compilation process which I didn't notice before. I think it has got something to do with permission settings but unfortunately I don't understanding it fully. Here is the portion of the output showing that error:

-linterfaceProperties -ltwoPhaseInterfaceProperties -lincompressibleTransportModels -lincompressibleTurbulenceModel -lincompressibleRASModels -lincompressibleLESModels -lfiniteVolume -lmeshTools -lfvOptions -lsampling -L/home/sagun/OpenFOAM/sagun-2.2.0/platforms/linux64GccDPOpt/lib -lwaves2Foam -lOpenFOAM -ldl -lm -o /opt/OpenFOAM-2.2.0/platforms/linux64GccDPOpt/bin/waveFoam
/usr/lib64/gcc/x86_64-suse-linux/4.7/../../../../x86_64-suse-linux/bin/ld: cannot open output file /opt/OpenFOAM-2.2.0/platforms/linux64GccDPOpt/bin/waveFoam: Permission denied
collect2: error: ld returned 1 exit status
make[1]: *** [/opt/OpenFOAM-2.2.0/platforms/linux64GccDPOpt/bin/waveFoam] Error 1
make[1]: Leaving directory `/home/sagun/waves2Foam/applications/solvers/solvers220/waveFoam'
make: *** [waveFoam] Error 2
make: Target `application' not remade because of errors.
make[1]: Entering directory `/home/sagun/waves2Foam/applications/utilities/misc'
make[2]: Entering directory `/home/sagun/waves2Foam/applications/utilities/misc/matlab'
make[3]: Entering directory `/home/sagun/waves2Foam/applications/utilities/misc/matlab/postprocessing'
make[3]: Nothing to be done for `application'.
make[3]: Leaving directory `/home/sagun/waves2Foam/applications/utilities/misc/matlab/postprocessing'
make[3]: Entering directory `/home/sagun/waves2Foam/applications/utilities/misc/matlab/preprocessing'
make[3]: Nothing to be done for `application'.
make[3]: Leaving directory `/home/sagun/waves2Foam/applications/utilities/misc/matlab/preprocessing'
make[2]: Leaving directory `/home/sagun/waves2Foam/applications/utilities/misc/matlab'
make[1]: Leaving directory `/home/sagun/waves2Foam/applications/utilities/misc'
make[1]: Entering directory `/home/sagun/waves2Foam/applications/utilities/postProcessing'
make[2]: Entering directory `/home/sagun/waves2Foam/applications/utilities/postProcessing/surfaceElevation'
Making dependency list for source file surfaceElevation.C
make[2]: Leaving directory `/home/sagun/waves2Foam/applications/utilities/postProcessing/surfaceElevation'
make[2]: Entering directory `/home/sagun/waves2Foam/applications/utilities/postProcessing/surfaceElevation'
SOURCE=surfaceElevation.C ; g++ -m64 -Dlinux64 -DWM_DP -Wall -Wextra -Wno-unused-parameter -Wold-style-cast -Wnon-virtual-dtor -O3 -DNoRepository -ftemplate-depth-100 -I/opt/OpenFOAM-2.2.0/src/finiteVolume/lnInclude -I/opt/OpenFOAM-2.2.0/src/meshTools/lnInclude -I/opt/OpenFOAM-2.2.0/src/sampling/lnInclude -I/opt/OpenFOAM-2.2.0/src/lagrangian/basic/lnInclude -I/opt/OpenFOAM-2.2.0/src/fileFormats/lnInclude -DOFVERSION=220 -DEXTBRANCH=0 -I./../../../../src/lnInclude -IlnInclude -I. -I/opt/OpenFOAM-2.2.0/src/OpenFOAM/lnInclude -I/opt/OpenFOAM-2.2.0/src/OSspecific/POSIX/lnInclude -fPIC -c $SOURCE -o Make/linux64GccDPOpt/surfaceElevation.o
g++ -m64 -Dlinux64 -DWM_DP -Wall -Wextra -Wno-unused-parameter -Wold-style-cast -Wnon-virtual-dtor -O3 -DNoRepository -ftemplate-depth-100 -I/opt/OpenFOAM-2.2.0/src/finiteVolume/lnInclude -I/opt/OpenFOAM-2.2.0/src/meshTools/lnInclude -I/opt/OpenFOAM-2.2.0/src/sampling/lnInclude -I/opt/OpenFOAM-2.2.0/src/lagrangian/basic/lnInclude -I/opt/OpenFOAM-2.2.0/src/fileFormats/lnInclude -DOFVERSION=220 -DEXTBRANCH=0 -I./../../../../src/lnInclude -IlnInclude -I. -I/opt/OpenFOAM-2.2.0/src/OpenFOAM/lnInclude -I/opt/OpenFOAM-2.2.0/src/OSspecific/POSIX/lnInclude -fPIC -Xlinker --add-needed -Xlinker --no-as-needed Make/linux64GccDPOpt/surfaceElevation.o -L/opt/OpenFOAM-2.2.0/platforms/linux64GccDPOpt/lib \
-lfiniteVolume -lmeshTools -lsampling -lsurfMesh -ltriSurface -llagrangian -lfileFormats -L/home/sagun/OpenFOAM/sagun-2.2.0/platforms/linux64GccDPOpt/lib -lwaves2Foam -lOpenFOAM -ldl -lm -o /home/sagun/OpenFOAM/sagun-2.2.0/platforms/linux64GccDPOpt/bin/surfaceElevation
make[2]: Leaving directory `/home/sagun/waves2Foam/applications/utilities/postProcessing/surfaceElevation'
make[1]: Leaving directory `/home/sagun/waves2Foam/applications/utilities/postProcessing'
make[1]: Entering directory `/home/sagun/waves2Foam/applications/utilities/preProcessing'
make[2]: Entering directory `/home/sagun/waves2Foam/applications/utilities/preProcessing/relaxationZoneLayout'
Making dependency list for source file relaxationZoneLayout.C
make[2]: Leaving directory `/home/sagun/waves2Foam/applications/utilities/preProcessing/relaxationZoneLayout'
make[2]: Entering directory `/home/sagun/waves2Foam/applications/utilities/preProcessing/relaxationZoneLayout'
SOURCE=relaxationZoneLayout.C ; g++ -m64 -Dlinux64 -DWM_DP -Wall -Wextra -Wno-unused-parameter -Wold-style-cast -Wnon-virtual-dtor -O3 -DNoRepository -ftemplate-depth-100 -I/opt/OpenFOAM-2.2.0/src/finiteVolume/lnInclude -DOFVERSION=220 -DEXTBRANCH=0 -I./../../../../src/lnInclude -IlnInclude -I. -I/opt/OpenFOAM-2.2.0/src/OpenFOAM/lnInclude -I/opt/OpenFOAM-2.2.0/src/OSspecific/POSIX/lnInclude -fPIC -c $SOURCE -o Make/linux64GccDPOpt/relaxationZoneLayout.o
g++ -m64 -Dlinux64 -DWM_DP -Wall -Wextra -Wno-unused-parameter -Wold-style-cast -Wnon-virtual-dtor -O3 -DNoRepository -ftemplate-depth-100 -I/opt/OpenFOAM-2.2.0/src/finiteVolume/lnInclude -DOFVERSION=220 -DEXTBRANCH=0 -I./../../../../src/lnInclude -IlnInclude -I. -I/opt/OpenFOAM-2.2.0/src/OpenFOAM/lnInclude -I/opt/OpenFOAM-2.2.0/src/OSspecific/POSIX/lnInclude -fPIC -Xlinker --add-needed -Xlinker --no-as-needed Make/linux64GccDPOpt/relaxationZoneLayout.o -L/opt/OpenFOAM-2.2.0/platforms/linux64GccDPOpt/lib \
-lfiniteVolume -L/home/sagun/OpenFOAM/sagun-2.2.0/platforms/linux64GccDPOpt/lib -lwaves2Foam -lOpenFOAM -ldl -lm -o /home/sagun/OpenFOAM/sagun-2.2.0/platforms/linux64GccDPOpt/bin/relaxationZoneLayout
make[2]: Leaving directory `/home/sagun/waves2Foam/applications/utilities/preProcessing/relaxationZoneLayout'
make[2]: Entering directory `/home/sagun/waves2Foam/applications/utilities/preProcessing/setWaveField'
Making dependency list for source file setWaveField.C
make[2]: Leaving directory `/home/sagun/waves2Foam/applications/utilities/preProcessing/setWaveField'
make[2]: Entering directory `/home/sagun/waves2Foam/applications/utilities/preProcessing/setWaveField'
SOURCE=setWaveField.C ; g++ -m64 -Dlinux64 -DWM_DP -Wall -Wextra -Wno-unused-parameter -Wold-style-cast -Wnon-virtual-dtor -O3 -DNoRepository -ftemplate-depth-100 -I/opt/OpenFOAM-2.2.0/src/finiteVolume/lnInclude -DOFVERSION=220 -DEXTBRANCH=0 -I./../../../../src/lnInclude -IlnInclude -I. -I/opt/OpenFOAM-2.2.0/src/OpenFOAM/lnInclude -I/opt/OpenFOAM-2.2.0/src/OSspecific/POSIX/lnInclude -fPIC -c $SOURCE -o Make/linux64GccDPOpt/setWaveField.o
g++ -m64 -Dlinux64 -DWM_DP -Wall -Wextra -Wno-unused-parameter -Wold-style-cast -Wnon-virtual-dtor -O3 -DNoRepository -ftemplate-depth-100 -I/opt/OpenFOAM-2.2.0/src/finiteVolume/lnInclude -DOFVERSION=220 -DEXTBRANCH=0 -I./../../../../src/lnInclude -IlnInclude -I. -I/opt/OpenFOAM-2.2.0/src/OpenFOAM/lnInclude -I/opt/OpenFOAM-2.2.0/src/OSspecific/POSIX/lnInclude -fPIC -Xlinker --add-needed -Xlinker --no-as-needed Make/linux64GccDPOpt/setWaveField.o -L/opt/OpenFOAM-2.2.0/platforms/linux64GccDPOpt/lib \
-lfiniteVolume -L/home/sagun/OpenFOAM/sagun-2.2.0/platforms/linux64GccDPOpt/lib -lwaves2Foam -lOpenFOAM -ldl -lm -o /home/sagun/OpenFOAM/sagun-2.2.0/platforms/linux64GccDPOpt/bin/setWaveField
make[2]: Leaving directory `/home/sagun/waves2Foam/applications/utilities/preProcessing/setWaveField'
make[2]: Entering directory `/home/sagun/waves2Foam/applications/utilities/preProcessing/setWaveParameters'
Making dependency list for source file setWaveParameters.C
make[2]: Leaving directory `/home/sagun/waves2Foam/applications/utilities/preProcessing/setWaveParameters'
make[2]: Entering directory `/home/sagun/waves2Foam/applications/utilities/preProcessing/setWaveParameters'
SOURCE=setWaveParameters.C ; g++ -m64 -Dlinux64 -DWM_DP -Wall -Wextra -Wno-unused-parameter -Wold-style-cast -Wnon-virtual-dtor -O3 -DNoRepository -ftemplate-depth-100 -DOFVERSION=220 -DEXTBRANCH=0 -I/opt/OpenFOAM-2.2.0/src/finiteVolume/lnInclude -I./../../../../src/lnInclude -I./../../../../src/lnInclude -I/usr/local/include -I/include -IlnInclude -I. -I/opt/OpenFOAM-2.2.0/src/OpenFOAM/lnInclude -I/opt/OpenFOAM-2.2.0/src/OSspecific/POSIX/lnInclude -fPIC -c $SOURCE -o Make/linux64GccDPOpt/setWaveParameters.o
g++ -m64 -Dlinux64 -DWM_DP -Wall -Wextra -Wno-unused-parameter -Wold-style-cast -Wnon-virtual-dtor -O3 -DNoRepository -ftemplate-depth-100 -DOFVERSION=220 -DEXTBRANCH=0 -I/opt/OpenFOAM-2.2.0/src/finiteVolume/lnInclude -I./../../../../src/lnInclude -I./../../../../src/lnInclude -I/usr/local/include -I/include -IlnInclude -I. -I/opt/OpenFOAM-2.2.0/src/OpenFOAM/lnInclude -I/opt/OpenFOAM-2.2.0/src/OSspecific/POSIX/lnInclude -fPIC -Xlinker --add-needed -Xlinker --no-as-needed Make/linux64GccDPOpt/setWaveParameters.o -L/opt/OpenFOAM-2.2.0/platforms/linux64GccDPOpt/lib \
-lfiniteVolume -lgsl -lgslcblas -L/home/sagun/OpenFOAM/sagun-2.2.0/platforms/linux64GccDPOpt/lib -lwaves2Foam -lOpenFOAM -ldl -lm -o /home/sagun/OpenFOAM/sagun-2.2.0/platforms/linux64GccDPOpt/bin/setWaveParameters
make[2]: Leaving directory `/home/sagun/waves2Foam/applications/utilities/preProcessing/setWaveParameters'
make[1]: Leaving directory `/home/sagun/waves2Foam/applications/utilities/preProcessing'

[ngj]

Good, this is an easy solution. It would be me, who have forgotten to change a single line. Change the file waves2Foam/applications/solvers/solvers220/waveFoam/Make/ such that the last line reads:

EXE = $(FOAM_USER_APPBIN)/waveFoam

The correction will be added as soon as the SVN is up and running. According to a post during Easter, the mechanics have begun working toward a re-opening of the SVN.

Kind regards,

Niels

[Sagun]

It worked! Thank you so much.

[s_braendli]

Dear all,

I get a segmentation fault when executing setWaveParameters with OF 2.2.0. I'm not sure if this problem is connected with the input changing to waveProperties.input . My case can be found at
http://www.tuhh.de/~skfsb/wigley_wave_fix.zip

I would be grateful for any hint.

Best regards
Silvan

/*---------------------------------------------------------------------------*\
| =========                 |                                                 |
| \\      /  F ield         | OpenFOAM: The Open Source CFD Toolbox           |
|  \\    /   O peration     | Version:  2.2.0                                 |
|   \\  /    A nd           | Web:      www.OpenFOAM.org                      |
|    \\/     M anipulation  |                                                 |
\*---------------------------------------------------------------------------*/
Build  : 2.2.0
Exec   : setWaveParameters
Date   : Apr 08 2013
Time   : 17:42:46
Host   : "leibniz"
PID    : 35790
Case   : /temp-4/sb/calcs/wigley_wave_fix2
nProcs : 1
sigFpe : Enabling floating point exception trapping (FOAM_SIGFPE).
fileModificationChecking : Monitoring run-time modified files using timeStampMaster
allowSystemOperations : Disallowing user-supplied system call operations

// * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * //
Create time


Reading g

Reading waveProperties

Constructing: stokesFirstProperties
#0  Foam::error::printStack(Foam::Ostream&) at ??:?
#1  Foam::sigSegv::sigHandler(int) at ??:?
#2   in "/lib64/libc.so.6"
#3  std::basic_string<char, std::char_traits<char>, std::allocator<char> >::basic_string(std::string const&) in "/usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/4.7.2/libstdc++.so.6"
#4  Foam::setWaveProperties::writeBeginning(Foam::Ostream&) at ??:?
#5  Foam::stokesFirstProperties::set(Foam::Ostream&) at ??:?
#6  
 at ??:?
#7  __libc_start_main in "/lib64/libc.so.6"
#8  
 at ??:?