2D rotating ellipse (domain interface??)

Kambusha · April 17, 2009, 10:51

Hi,

Problem was I couldn't open the tutorials to see how the interfaces had been done. Either way, I managed to get it work - these are my settings for the interface:
side 1: domain - ellipse; cylinder surface
side 2: domain - tunnel; cylinder surface
Type: GGI
Frame Change: Transient Rotor-Stator
Transformation Type: None
Pitch Change: Automatic

Thanks everyone for helping out!

Patrick

dclaudia85 · May 15, 2012, 06:58

Hi everybody!
I'm trying to simulate something like this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ghorrocks

Hi,

You don't need to model the solid region (which I assume is the ellipse) if you are not modelling heat transfer. If this is the case then you will have two fluid regions, one stationary and one rotating connected by a GGI set to a transient rotor-stator.

Glenn Horrocks

If I have to consider also heat transfer in my model then I have to include the rotating solid domain. Am I right? and how can I define the interfaces?

Claudia

ghorrocks · May 15, 2012, 08:46

No. You model the solid domain ONLY if you require the temperature distribution in the solid. If you are modelling temperature in the fluid but know the condition of the solid then you do not need to model the solid.

dclaudia85 · May 15, 2012, 08:55

Thank you. I just wanted to be sure.
Unfortuntely I have still problems interfacing the two fluid domains: the stationary one and the rotating one.
I created a fluid/fludid interface between them, with frozen rotor frame change.
Now which boundary condition am I supposed to set in domain interface side 1 and domain interface side2 in terms of wall velocity?
I must specify that the stationary fluid has a traversing velocity as inlet boundary condition.

Claudia

ghorrocks · May 15, 2012, 20:24

If the interface has no gaps then you do not need to set any boundary condition. Have a look at the tutorials for how to set up rotating machinery simulations.

dclaudia85 · May 16, 2012, 04:42

Sorry but I've already looked at all the tutorials, I'll check again.
I give you a better explanation of the problem:
I'm trying to simulate the Friction Stir Welding process. I'm using an Eulerian Method with the workpiece modeled as a fluid that moves towards a rotanting cylinder (the tool) and the heat generation due to friction between them.

dclaudia85 · May 17, 2012, 05:23

does anybody have any good idea to help me?

ghorrocks · May 17, 2012, 07:07

Unless you give us some idea of what you are modelling I cannot help you. That is why I did not bother replying. I am not an expert at friction stir welding and I have no idea of how you propose to model it. So please post a drawing of what you propose and a clear description.

dclaudia85 · May 17, 2012, 07:44

Thank you Glenn. I'm sorry. I'll give you a better explanation.

The model consists of a cylindrical steel tool which is rotating, it's plunged into the rectangular workpiece and then moved along the weld line.
There are three ways to analyse this process: eulerian, lagrangian or ALE approach.
I'm using the first one. So a give a translational velocity at inlet of the workpiece and the velocity of the material adjacent to the rotating tool is assumed to be equal to the tool's rotational speed. I think I managed to give this boundary conditions. The problem is when I have to insert the heat flux at the tool/workpiece interface. I've calculated it through analitical expressions assuming sticking conditions.

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images...magineymn.jpg/

I should obtain in post processing a temperature contour like this but my contours ara concentric and I think they're not influenced by the translational motion:

ghorrocks · May 17, 2012, 08:00

I understand now. In fact I was part of a team which looked at friction welding of steering racks (for automotive stuff) years ago so I know a little about this process.

What version of CFX are you using? I think convection of heat in solids due to motion of the body was only put in V14. If you are using an earlier version it will not include convection and I suspect that could end up with concentric heat profiles.

Alternately, what causes the asymmetric heat in the images? Isn't there a bit of tool deflection, uneven melting and other stuff resulting in uneven heat generation?

dclaudia85 · May 17, 2012, 08:10

I'm using version 13.So you're telling me that I can't see a wake behind the tool in terms of temperature contour?

In that image they consider heat generated by viscous dissipation.
The asymmetric temperature contour should be caused by the rotating motion; they consider also an angle between the tool and the workpiece.

ghorrocks · May 17, 2012, 08:13

They might have introduced this in V13. It is simple to check, just put a hot spot in a solid body and move it and see what happens. Do you see a hot wake behidn the tool?

dclaudia85 · May 17, 2012, 08:28

I created a solid cylinder with a heat flux on a boundary interfaced with a fluid. On the tool side I can see the wake. On the fluid side I don't.
Maybe I make always the same mistake.

Apart from the specific boundary conditions do you think I'm modeling the fsw process in the right way?

dclaudia85 · May 17, 2012, 15:17

I managed to run a very simple simulation with a fluid moving toward a cylinder with an heat source on a boundary.

That's the result. I can see the wake.
Now I have to find out what's wrong when I plunge the cylinder in the fluid domain.

ghorrocks · May 17, 2012, 19:55

Quote:

do you think I'm modeling the fsw process in the right way?

I don't know what you are trying to learn from this simulation, so cannot answer that.

Quote:

I managed to run a very simple simulation with a fluid moving toward a cylinder with an heat source on a boundary.

OK, so that shows that the heat is being convected away in a fluid domain, but what about in a solid domain?

dclaudia85 · May 18, 2012, 05:56

I'm much more interested in temperature in the workpiece. My problem was I could not see the wake in the fluid.

ghorrocks · May 18, 2012, 08:47

CHT should work fine into the fluid, so a heat wake should form if the conditions are correct.

dclaudia85 · May 18, 2012, 10:09

Yes my problem are definetely the conditions because I'm running more simulations and when I insert heat transfer coefficient on the other surfaces of the workpiece (to simulate the convective heat transfer with air) the wake disappear.

ghorrocks · May 19, 2012, 08:10

The obvious conclusion is your convective BC is wrong. I suspect it results in almost no heat transfer and therefore no heat wake. Check you HTC and temperatures.

May 17, 2012, 08:28		#33
dclaudia85 New Member claudia Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 11 Rep Power: 14	I created a solid cylinder with a heat flux on a boundary interfaced with a fluid. On the tool side I can see the wake. On the fluid side I don't. Maybe I make always the same mistake. Apart from the specific boundary conditions do you think I'm modeling the fsw process in the right way? Last edited by dclaudia85; May 17, 2012 at 09:39.

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April 17, 2009, 10:51		#21
Kambusha New Member Erik Sandstroem Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 11 Rep Power: 17	Hi, Problem was I couldn't open the tutorials to see how the interfaces had been done. Either way, I managed to get it work - these are my settings for the interface: side 1: domain - ellipse; cylinder surface side 2: domain - tunnel; cylinder surface Type: GGI Frame Change: Transient Rotor-Stator Transformation Type: None Pitch Change: Automatic Thanks everyone for helping out! Patrick

May 15, 2012, 08:46		#23
ghorrocks Super Moderator Glenn Horrocks Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 17,870 Rep Power: 144	No. You model the solid domain ONLY if you require the temperature distribution in the solid. If you are modelling temperature in the fluid but know the condition of the solid then you do not need to model the solid.

May 15, 2012, 08:55		#24
dclaudia85 New Member claudia Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 11 Rep Power: 14	Thank you. I just wanted to be sure. Unfortuntely I have still problems interfacing the two fluid domains: the stationary one and the rotating one. I created a fluid/fludid interface between them, with frozen rotor frame change. Now which boundary condition am I supposed to set in domain interface side 1 and domain interface side2 in terms of wall velocity? I must specify that the stationary fluid has a traversing velocity as inlet boundary condition. Claudia

May 15, 2012, 20:24		#25
ghorrocks Super Moderator Glenn Horrocks Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 17,870 Rep Power: 144	If the interface has no gaps then you do not need to set any boundary condition. Have a look at the tutorials for how to set up rotating machinery simulations.

May 16, 2012, 04:42		#26
dclaudia85 New Member claudia Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 11 Rep Power: 14	Sorry but I've already looked at all the tutorials, I'll check again. I give you a better explanation of the problem: I'm trying to simulate the Friction Stir Welding process. I'm using an Eulerian Method with the workpiece modeled as a fluid that moves towards a rotanting cylinder (the tool) and the heat generation due to friction between them.

May 17, 2012, 05:23		#27
dclaudia85 New Member claudia Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 11 Rep Power: 14	does anybody have any good idea to help me?

May 17, 2012, 07:07		#28
ghorrocks Super Moderator Glenn Horrocks Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 17,870 Rep Power: 144	Unless you give us some idea of what you are modelling I cannot help you. That is why I did not bother replying. I am not an expert at friction stir welding and I have no idea of how you propose to model it. So please post a drawing of what you propose and a clear description.

May 17, 2012, 07:44		#29
dclaudia85 New Member claudia Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 11 Rep Power: 14	Thank you Glenn. I'm sorry. I'll give you a better explanation. The model consists of a cylindrical steel tool which is rotating, it's plunged into the rectangular workpiece and then moved along the weld line. There are three ways to analyse this process: eulerian, lagrangian or ALE approach. I'm using the first one. So a give a translational velocity at inlet of the workpiece and the velocity of the material adjacent to the rotating tool is assumed to be equal to the tool's rotational speed. I think I managed to give this boundary conditions. The problem is when I have to insert the heat flux at the tool/workpiece interface. I've calculated it through analitical expressions assuming sticking conditions. http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images...magineymn.jpg/ I should obtain in post processing a temperature contour like this but my contours ara concentric and I think they're not influenced by the translational motion:

May 17, 2012, 08:00		#30
ghorrocks Super Moderator Glenn Horrocks Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 17,870 Rep Power: 144	I understand now. In fact I was part of a team which looked at friction welding of steering racks (for automotive stuff) years ago so I know a little about this process. What version of CFX are you using? I think convection of heat in solids due to motion of the body was only put in V14. If you are using an earlier version it will not include convection and I suspect that could end up with concentric heat profiles. Alternately, what causes the asymmetric heat in the images? Isn't there a bit of tool deflection, uneven melting and other stuff resulting in uneven heat generation?

May 17, 2012, 08:10		#31
dclaudia85 New Member claudia Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 11 Rep Power: 14	I'm using version 13.So you're telling me that I can't see a wake behind the tool in terms of temperature contour? In that image they consider heat generated by viscous dissipation. The asymmetric temperature contour should be caused by the rotating motion; they consider also an angle between the tool and the workpiece.

May 17, 2012, 08:13		#32
ghorrocks Super Moderator Glenn Horrocks Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 17,870 Rep Power: 144	They might have introduced this in V13. It is simple to check, just put a hot spot in a solid body and move it and see what happens. Do you see a hot wake behidn the tool?

May 18, 2012, 05:56		#36
dclaudia85 New Member claudia Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 11 Rep Power: 14	I'm much more interested in temperature in the workpiece. My problem was I could not see the wake in the fluid.

May 18, 2012, 08:47		#37
ghorrocks Super Moderator Glenn Horrocks Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 17,870 Rep Power: 144	CHT should work fine into the fluid, so a heat wake should form if the conditions are correct.

May 18, 2012, 10:09		#38
dclaudia85 New Member claudia Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 11 Rep Power: 14	Yes my problem are definetely the conditions because I'm running more simulations and when I insert heat transfer coefficient on the other surfaces of the workpiece (to simulate the convective heat transfer with air) the wake disappear.

May 19, 2012, 08:10		#39
ghorrocks Super Moderator Glenn Horrocks Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 17,870 Rep Power: 144	The obvious conclusion is your convective BC is wrong. I suspect it results in almost no heat transfer and therefore no heat wake. Check you HTC and temperatures.