Finmes error

Aliosha86 · April 13, 2015, 03:29

Hi guys,

I am running a simulation with CFX for my thesis. The problem is simple: I have to pressurize a tank with an air flow. My initial condition are 300 Pa and 293 K in the entire volume. The pressurization of the tank must be done imposing a time-dependent flow rate. The flow rate is imposed at the inlet through a law obtained by a regression of the experimental data.
I previously run a simulation with 2000 Pa and 293. The flow is subsonic and I have any problems. The results are in perfect agreement with the experimental ones. The results are obtained using SSG turbolence model, a time step of 0.01 seconds.

Now changing the initial condition to 300 Pa, CFX do only few iterations and then gives me the message "FINMES error". Probably I have to reduce my time-step to 0.001 sec, but in this case the simulation starts, but it does not follow the experimental results giving me a lot of peaks and other strange things.
I run this simulation using the same turbolence model, and I changed the "solver advanced control" using "high speed numerics, pressure control and etc..". Probably in some point of the field the flow can become supersonic.

Does anyone have some suggestions???

Thanks in advance

Alessio

nickjuana · April 13, 2015, 04:09

Try other turbulence models like K-omega and K-epsilon.

ghorrocks · April 13, 2015, 07:19

I agree - use a simpler turbulence model unless you know you need the SSG model.

And your question is an FAQ: http://www.cfd-online.com/Wiki/Ansys...do_about_it.3F

Aliosha86 · April 13, 2015, 08:00

Thanks, but I started with the k-epsilon model, and the results were not so good. I tried this model because it gave me the best results with the initial condition of 2000 Pa.

ghorrocks · April 13, 2015, 08:23

The SSG model is chronically unstable and hard to converge. It is no surprise you are having problems with it. Do not use SSG unless you know you need it (and know why you need it

).

The turbulence model I recommend is SST. Give it a try - it is the best general purpose turbulence model in CFX. It also has options for curvature correction and lots of other things which may assist. SST is also quite stable and easy to use.

Aliosha86 · April 13, 2015, 09:00

Thanks I will give it a look and I will let u know

Do you think that it can be also suitable for flows which became supersonic starting from subsonic condition?

ghorrocks · April 13, 2015, 19:09

Yes, that is fine.

Aliosha86 · April 14, 2015, 03:42

I started the simulation with the SST model and it runs. Nevertheless, the graphic of the pressure is not so clean as I expected. I get a constant pressurization rate after the transient of the valve but during the transient the pressure has a strange behaviour. I attach the graphics of the pressure and the temperature.

In parallel I am also running a simulation with the k-omega model, and I hope to get the right results. Or a least I can make a comparison on which model can be the best option.

Thank you very much for the advice, and if you have any ideas do not hesitate to suggest.

Alessio

ghorrocks · April 15, 2015, 07:23

Why do you think the rate should be smooth? Shouldn't there be shock waves and other flow features bouncing around?

It is highly unlikely that simply switching turbulence model will make the results "correct". I recommend you stay with the SST model and read this FAQ: http://www.cfd-online.com/Wiki/Ansys..._inaccurate.3F

Aliosha86 · April 16, 2015, 03:39

Glenn, I know that physics rules above numerics

. Shock waves exists and I cannot get rid of them

Therefore, I am expecting a bunch of shock waves, because my flow became early supersonic.

What seems strange to me is that the behaviour is linear for a period of time, then became messy and became linear again. I do not know if there are some numerical errors that affect my simulation.
That is why I want to check some different models, just to verify which is more stable and robust.

Alessio

ghorrocks · April 16, 2015, 04:47

These features are unlikely to be turbulence model related. Much more likely it is initial transients and shock waves.

Thomas MADELEINE · April 16, 2015, 05:08

if there are shock waves I would rather use k-omega instead of SST.
SST use k-omega only for near wall region and k-epsilon in the middle of the fluid region (if I understood clearly).

Problem is k-epsilon model have some troubles with big pressure evolution like shock wave.
I had this problem a while ago in a nozzle and using k-omega model helped me.

Aliosha86 · April 16, 2015, 06:24

Thanks Thomas. I agree with you. The k-omega model seems to reproduce the pressurization rate that I measure with my sensors during the experiments.
But I have to wait till my simulation stops to be sure of these results.

Alessio

April 13, 2015, 03:29	Finmes error	#1
Aliosha86 New Member Alessio Mancini Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 19 Rep Power: 11	Hi guys, I am running a simulation with CFX for my thesis. The problem is simple: I have to pressurize a tank with an air flow. My initial condition are 300 Pa and 293 K in the entire volume. The pressurization of the tank must be done imposing a time-dependent flow rate. The flow rate is imposed at the inlet through a law obtained by a regression of the experimental data. I previously run a simulation with 2000 Pa and 293. The flow is subsonic and I have any problems. The results are in perfect agreement with the experimental ones. The results are obtained using SSG turbolence model, a time step of 0.01 seconds. Now changing the initial condition to 300 Pa, CFX do only few iterations and then gives me the message "FINMES error". Probably I have to reduce my time-step to 0.001 sec, but in this case the simulation starts, but it does not follow the experimental results giving me a lot of peaks and other strange things. I run this simulation using the same turbolence model, and I changed the "solver advanced control" using "high speed numerics, pressure control and etc..". Probably in some point of the field the flow can become supersonic. Does anyone have some suggestions??? Thanks in advance Alessio

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April 13, 2015, 04:09		#2
nickjuana Member Nick Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 40 Rep Power: 11	Try other turbulence models like K-omega and K-epsilon.

April 13, 2015, 07:19		#3
ghorrocks Super Moderator Glenn Horrocks Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 17,870 Rep Power: 144	I agree - use a simpler turbulence model unless you know you need the SSG model. And your question is an FAQ: http://www.cfd-online.com/Wiki/Ansys...do_about_it.3F

April 13, 2015, 08:00		#4
Aliosha86 New Member Alessio Mancini Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 19 Rep Power: 11	Thanks, but I started with the k-epsilon model, and the results were not so good. I tried this model because it gave me the best results with the initial condition of 2000 Pa.

April 13, 2015, 08:23		#5
ghorrocks Super Moderator Glenn Horrocks Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 17,870 Rep Power: 144	The SSG model is chronically unstable and hard to converge. It is no surprise you are having problems with it. Do not use SSG unless you know you need it (and know why you need it ). The turbulence model I recommend is SST. Give it a try - it is the best general purpose turbulence model in CFX. It also has options for curvature correction and lots of other things which may assist. SST is also quite stable and easy to use.

April 13, 2015, 09:00		#6
Aliosha86 New Member Alessio Mancini Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 19 Rep Power: 11	Thanks I will give it a look and I will let u know Do you think that it can be also suitable for flows which became supersonic starting from subsonic condition?

April 13, 2015, 19:09		#7
ghorrocks Super Moderator Glenn Horrocks Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 17,870 Rep Power: 144	Yes, that is fine.

April 15, 2015, 07:23		#9
ghorrocks Super Moderator Glenn Horrocks Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 17,870 Rep Power: 144	Why do you think the rate should be smooth? Shouldn't there be shock waves and other flow features bouncing around? It is highly unlikely that simply switching turbulence model will make the results "correct". I recommend you stay with the SST model and read this FAQ: http://www.cfd-online.com/Wiki/Ansys..._inaccurate.3F

April 16, 2015, 03:39		#10
Aliosha86 New Member Alessio Mancini Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 19 Rep Power: 11	Glenn, I know that physics rules above numerics . Shock waves exists and I cannot get rid of them Therefore, I am expecting a bunch of shock waves, because my flow became early supersonic. What seems strange to me is that the behaviour is linear for a period of time, then became messy and became linear again. I do not know if there are some numerical errors that affect my simulation. That is why I want to check some different models, just to verify which is more stable and robust. Alessio

April 16, 2015, 04:47		#11
ghorrocks Super Moderator Glenn Horrocks Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 17,870 Rep Power: 144	These features are unlikely to be turbulence model related. Much more likely it is initial transients and shock waves.

April 16, 2015, 05:08		#12
Thomas MADELEINE Senior Member Thomas MADELEINE Join Date: Oct 2014 Posts: 126 Rep Power: 12	if there are shock waves I would rather use k-omega instead of SST. SST use k-omega only for near wall region and k-epsilon in the middle of the fluid region (if I understood clearly). Problem is k-epsilon model have some troubles with big pressure evolution like shock wave. I had this problem a while ago in a nozzle and using k-omega model helped me.

April 16, 2015, 06:24		#13
Aliosha86 New Member Alessio Mancini Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 19 Rep Power: 11	Thanks Thomas. I agree with you. The k-omega model seems to reproduce the pressurization rate that I measure with my sensors during the experiments. But I have to wait till my simulation stops to be sure of these results. Alessio