CFD Online Logo CFD Online URL
www.cfd-online.com
[Sponsors]
Home > Forums > Software User Forums > ANSYS > CFX

Negative Element Volume when doing 2-way FSI between CFX and Transient Structural

Register Blogs Community New Posts Updated Threads Search

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old   September 29, 2014, 19:59
Default Negative Element Volume when doing 2-way FSI between CFX and Transient Structural
  #1
New Member
 
Josiah Lund
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Norman, OK, USA
Posts: 7
Rep Power: 12
lund8619 is on a distinguished road
I attempting to simulate the human ear canal, tympanic membrane (TM), and cavity. The canal and cavity are both fluids (air) and the tympanic membrane is a solid. A pressure spike is introduced at the inlet of the canal that decreases linearly with time.

ei. if(t>0.0[s]&&t<0.00003[s],(-2333333.333...[kPa/s]*t)+70[kPa],0.0[Pa])

I have successfully completed simulations with unreasonably high values for the Young's Modulus of the TM, but when I try to use a more realistic value (98kPa) for this, the solver runs until the pressure wave reaches the TM, at which the negative element is detected and the simulation ends.

I am self taught and still learning what information is useful when debugging and sharing my own simulations. I am willing to share my entire project in order to get a successful run of the model, so if more information is needed, just let me know. Attached are a gif of a successful run and the first and last portions of the .out file for a failed run.

Josiah
Attached Images
File Type: jpg cl10o.jpg (6.4 KB, 19 views)
Attached Files
File Type: txt Fluid Flow CFX_001.txt (85.0 KB, 5 views)
lund8619 is offline   Reply With Quote

Old   September 30, 2014, 04:49
Default
  #2
Senior Member
 
Matthias Voß
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Berlin, Germany
Posts: 449
Rep Power: 20
mvoss is on a distinguished road
Where is the neg. element? Try to save the mesh for every timestep up to the impact. Relaxation factors could be lower (like 0.5-0.1) in flow direction - same for the Convergence Target (1e-3 -1e-4)? Increase the coupling iterations. Convergence criteria for the meshmovement is crucial- i would suggest at least max 1e-6? Could be basically anything. But getting to position of the neg. element is the first thing to do.
mvoss is offline   Reply With Quote

Old   September 30, 2014, 04:57
Default
  #3
New Member
 
Josiah Lund
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Norman, OK, USA
Posts: 7
Rep Power: 12
lund8619 is on a distinguished road
The negative element appears at or very near to where the TM meets the canal wall. As for the saving the mesh and the timestep, I have run with a step as small as 1e-9[s] outputting every 1e-7[s]. I do not know my relaxation factor or convergence criteria off the top of my head, but I believe they are the default values. I will look and post the values in the morning.
lund8619 is offline   Reply With Quote

Old   September 30, 2014, 05:49
Default
  #4
Senior Member
 
Matthias Voß
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Berlin, Germany
Posts: 449
Rep Power: 20
mvoss is on a distinguished road
Can you post some pictures?One overall and one zoomed in?
mvoss is offline   Reply With Quote

Old   September 30, 2014, 16:05
Default
  #5
New Member
 
Josiah Lund
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Norman, OK, USA
Posts: 7
Rep Power: 12
lund8619 is on a distinguished road
I have gone in and looked up all the data you mentioned for this simulation.

-Time Step = 1e-7
-Output Frequency = every 10 timesteps
-Under Relaxation Factor = .75
-Convergence Target = 1e-2
-Max Coupling Iterations = 10
-Convergence Criteria = .001 (RMS)

From the looks of your suggested values, and the values used in my simulation, the problem may be solved. I will adjust the values and run again. Attached are the images you requested. Through the center of the model, user points are plotted for data observation during the simulation. The user point in that is out of line is the location of the negative element.

Thank you for your response,
Josiah
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Model with User Points.jpg (33.1 KB, 13 views)
File Type: jpg Zoomed View.jpg (68.3 KB, 15 views)
lund8619 is offline   Reply With Quote

Old   September 30, 2014, 17:43
Default
  #6
Senior Member
 
Matthias Voß
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Berlin, Germany
Posts: 449
Rep Power: 20
mvoss is on a distinguished road
You definetly Need to refine the mesh, before applying any of the suggested tweakings. Is the tm sealing the whole canal? Hard to tell from the pics.
mvoss is offline   Reply With Quote

Old   September 30, 2014, 17:50
Default
  #7
New Member
 
Josiah Lund
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Norman, OK, USA
Posts: 7
Rep Power: 12
lund8619 is on a distinguished road
Yes, the TM completely spans the passageway between canal and membrane. What work can I do refining the mesh? I used the most fine settings when generating the mesh. (Average mesh quality is .804)
lund8619 is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply

Tags
2-way fsi, cfx, folded, negative elements, transient structural


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Two way FSI in ANSYS 13(CFX + Transient Structural) k_k ANSYS 18 December 29, 2014 21:40
Transient Structural Coupleی CFX transient Pressure sajad_ENG Structural Mechanics 0 December 7, 2013 15:28
Static structural Analysis using temperature profile from CFX transient solution bhavik139 Structural Mechanics 3 July 7, 2013 21:51
Transient CFX and transient structural problem jurij CFX 1 November 12, 2012 09:51
A negative ELEMENT volume Pavelko CFX 1 November 14, 2010 17:46


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:08.